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Post by Eowyn on May 4, 2005 15:30:25 GMT -5
One of my favorite movies OF ALL TIME is Heaven And Earth about the samurais Kagetora and Takeda. I see this is in the 1500s. Could someone please give a brief run-down on the persons of power that came after these samurais and up until the time we see in Yi Soon-shin?
Also, has anyone seen the complete film of Heaven And Earth. My copy is only 90 minutes long and was recorded off tv. If so, what is the longer movie like?
This movie should so get a grand DVD release. I wish I could see it in a huge theatre, all those fluttering banners and horses and red and black soldiers. And the music I find beautiful.
Thanks.
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Post by Skinz Unlogged on May 4, 2005 16:35:15 GMT -5
One of my favorite movies OF ALL TIME is Heaven And Earth about the samurais Kagetora and Takeda. I see this is in the 1500s. Could someone please give a brief run-down on the persons of power that came after these samurais and up until the time we see in Yi Soon-shin? Also, has anyone seen the complete film of Heaven And Earth. My copy is only 90 minutes long and was recorded off tv. If so, what is the longer movie like? This movie should so get a grand DVD release. I wish I could see it in a huge theatre, all those fluttering banners and horses and red and black soldiers. And the music I find beautiful. Thanks. you mean this: Take a deep breathe cause this is quite long. Kagetora AKA Uesugi Kenshin was born in 1530 and died in 1570. Son of Nagao Tamekage, he would eventually fight his brother,Harukage, to gain supremecy of the Nagao clan in 1547. In 1553, defeated warlords by the hands of Takeda ran to Kagetora for assistance and suggested to battle Takeda. Kagetoa was well aware of Takeda's move so he marched his army to Kawanakajima where the two first came in contact. In 1559, Kagetora went to the capital, Kyoto, to show loyalty to the Ashikaga Shogun. Kagetora later became a buddhist and took the name Kenshin. In 1561, Kenshin while in the process of trying to take Odawara castle, he took Kamakura and took the name Uesugi. After the Odawara campaign, Kenshin sought after Shinano Province, Takada domain. When the battle started, Kenshin forces ran throught Takada 20,000 army and killed Takeda's brother in the process. The two rivals would go at it on five occasion at Kawanakajima. Kenshin was also a rival of the Hojo clan. When Oda Nobunaga installed the new shogun in 1568, both of them joined forces to fight Takeda and his forces. Utimatley, their friendship didn't last when Takeda died and war began both of them. In 1577-78, Kenshin continued to fight against Oda Nobunaga and the Hojo family. All this fighting came back to him when he felt ill and died. Takeda Shingen- 1521 - 1573 Eldest son of Takeda Nobutora. Had a rough relationship with his father that caused his rebellion in 1541 that exiled his father. In 1542 he started his campaing of Shinano province. In 1553 he started his legendary battle with kenshin at Kawanakajima. Takeda uncovered a assasination plot by his cousin and his son. Best known for the Fuji River and his domestic ahievements. In 1572 launched war on Togukawa,which almost defeated Togukawa. Died in 1573. Both were not involved with Hideyoshi plans because Hideyoshi didn't achieve sucess yet. Never saw the movie but i plan on seeing it.
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Post by ID on May 4, 2005 17:25:39 GMT -5
TO answer your other question, Eowyn, I will say that Oda Nobunaga was the main guy up untill Yi Soon Shin, and AFTER the deaths of Takeda and Kagetora. It is said that Kagetora might have been able to defeat Oda, Tokugawa, and Hojo, had he not died of illness. Also, it is said that an assassin waited under his toilet, and stabbed him from behind. I'm not kidding. Uesugi Kagekatsu took control after Kagetora, and never was able to regain his past glory. Kagekatsu lost much of his land to Oda. Following Toyotomi Hideyoshi's death in 1598, he began to feud with Tokugawa Ieyasu, and was one of the main causes for Sekigahara. Following the defeat of Toyotomi loyalists, Kagekatsu redeemed himself by giving up even more land, and taking part in the Osaka Castle siege. Kagekatsu, though considered a capable warrior, won very few battles, and was never able to gain bakc anything he lost. KagetoraKagetora's bannerTakeda Shingen4th Battle ofKanawakajimaHojo UjiyasuOda Nobunaga {the most important man of the period} Ashikaga Yoshiaki {15th and final Ashikaga Shogun. The following is a carving}
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Post by Eowyn on May 5, 2005 8:29:55 GMT -5
Thank you skinz. Thank you ID. skinz, where did you find a pic of a Heaven and Earth (I think the Japanese transliteration is Ten to Chi to) DVD cover? I'm assuming it is not region 1. I've been looking to buy a used VHS. Thanks for the good bios, skinz. Good luck in trying to find the movie to see! ID, thanks for filling me in on the events leading to Toyotomi, including Kagekatsu and Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa Ieyasu. And thanks for the pictures. At first I thought that Kagetora looked more like how Takeda is portrayed in the film. I see Takeda has that red armor. Battle of Kawanakajima looks as the film does too. Thank you, good Japanese scholars.
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Post by TheBo on May 5, 2005 10:01:37 GMT -5
ID, those are gorgeous pictures. Where are you getting them?
Bo
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Post by Maalii on May 8, 2005 0:48:57 GMT -5
A few additional tidbits to add. While Kenshin and Shingen were at war with each other and then with Ieyasu and Nobunaga, there were some other major powers in other parts of Japan, some of whom figure during the time of YSS and later. In Kyushu, the Shimazu clan was paramount and it was not until several years after Nobunaga's death that Hideyoshi subjugated them. In western Honshu, in the area centered around what became Hiroshima, the Mori ruled. Hideyoshi was in the midst of campaigning against the Mori when Akechi Mitsuhide, one of Nobunaga's top generals, killed Nobunaga. Hideyoshi negotiated a hasty truce then turned back and raced to Kyoto at lightning speed catching Mitsuhide unprepared. Also at this time, in northern Honshu, Date Masamune was the dominant player. After killing Mitsuhide and becoming Japan's most powerful military figure, Hideyoshi still had many powerful enemies to subdue--the Mori, Shimazu, and Hojo (not the same family as the earlier Hojo regents) were defeated by large scale campaigns and Masamune swore allegiance to Hideyoshi after Hideyoshi crushed the Hojo following a lengthy siege at Odawara. During this time, Ieyasu had also risen in power, first as an vassal of Nobunaga, then as Hideyoshi's most powerful ally. By the time Hideyoshi turned his attention to invading Korea and China, Ieyasu had gained enough strength that Hideyoshi could not bend him to his will. Ieyasu's strength is one of the main reasons he did not ciontribute troops to the invasion.
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Post by ID on May 8, 2005 6:32:01 GMT -5
Unless, i'm incorrect, I do believe that Kagekatsu was a rival of Date Masamune. I believe that is an interesting portrait. Date Masamune lost his right eye in a childhood accident. Yet he had his portrait taken with both intact.
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Post by Maalii on May 10, 2005 0:31:50 GMT -5
Unless, i'm incorrect, I do believe that Kagekatsu was a rival of Date Masamune. I believe that is an interesting portrait. Date Masamune lost his right eye in a childhood accident. Yet he had his portrait taken with both intact. I believe that is correct. Uesugi did not fare as well as Date after Sekigahara. Ieyasu increased Masamune's revenue to 605,000 koku from making him No. 3 of the non-Tokugawa daimyo, whereas Uesugi was stripped of 900,000 koku in revenue and dropped to 300,000 (No. 1 was Maeda Toshiie's son and tied for No.3 was Shimazu). Mori was reduced as severely as Uesugi but eventually increased greatly in power, along with Shimazu, during the time of the Tokugawa regime. Two hundred and fifty some odd years later when the Tokugawa regime finally crumbled during the restoration, the Mori and Shimazu emerged as the two dominant clans.
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ronin
Junior Addict
Posts: 168
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Post by ronin on May 10, 2005 0:51:18 GMT -5
You can buy the DVD here: Heaven & Earth. They have the full movie version but it's the untranslated version.1 It's also region 2 not 1 but they got a reasonably priced DVD player that's region free! The DVD theater system my uncle gave to me when he stationed in Japan when I was in college plays all regions. I haven't gotten that DVD yet or even watched it but I'm interested. I would also recommend buying Kagemusha directed by Akira Kurosawa which also about Takeda Shingen's Army being lead by his body double after his assassination against Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu's armies. They have a lot of battles but it's not a panoramic battles where you see troops fighting it out like in Wang Gun, Age of Warriors, Yi Soon Shin, or Gangs of New York! It's a good movie nonetheless as well as Ran but that court jester in Ran isn't realistic. He would get killed many times at the spot for his insolence. BTW, you can find some pictures of famous Daimyos on this site castle.kiku.com/shop/ and they have more info on Samurais on this site as well here!
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Post by Eowyn on May 10, 2005 15:02:20 GMT -5
Thanks so much ronin. I swear that yesasia didn't have Heaven And Earth before, for I had looked. I believe I can play all regions on my computer DVD player. I'm still hoping for a special edition region 1 dvd or perhaps a theater release (too much to ask, I know). I've been planning to buy Kagemusha and RAN. I love the actor Mansai Nomura from the Onmyoji films and he is in RAN. lol, perhaps he is the court jester (just kidding). I'll look through all those sites you noted. Wow! T-shirts. Hope you get to see Tento Chito. P.S. Maalii, thanks for the additional info. Aren't you supposed to be Hachiman Taro, though? this is the Yi Soon-shin tangent thread.
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Post by Maalii on May 11, 2005 22:13:21 GMT -5
I've been planning to buy Kagemusha and RAN. I love the actor Mansai Nomura from the Onmyoji films and he is in RAN. lol, perhaps he is the court jester (just kidding).P.S. Maalii, thanks for the additional info. Aren't you supposed to be Hachiman Taro, though? this is the Yi Soon-shin tangent thread. Yes, Kagemusha is a fine movie. The final wipe out Katsuyori's army by firearms (a turning point in Japanese military history) is very poignantly done. As for HT, we've been in the process of moving out of the Bay Area so I haven't had the time to watch YSS, so I've reverted to my old moniker. Actually I don't think I'll be able to watch Korean OR Japanese TV where we'll be moving. This will make the old screen name more appropriate, because from now on I won't have any more great warrior dramas to watch--I'll simply have to write my own.
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Post by Eowyn on May 16, 2005 10:54:56 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear that you will not have access to Asian dramas, Maalii. Perhaps you can get satellite tv? Or....perhaps now you'll have even more time to write your epic.
By the way, browsing at the bookstore the other day, I came across (and purchased) volume one of The Romance of the Three Kingdoms! Cannot wait to start reading it.
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Post by Skinz Unlogged on May 16, 2005 11:04:49 GMT -5
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Post by Eowyn on May 16, 2005 11:14:33 GMT -5
Ah, I see, skinz. But I am an old fashioned lover of ink and paper, a total book devotee. lol, As for saving my money, well, the book Was out of my price range, so much so that I couldn't afford volume two!
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Post by Maalii on May 16, 2005 17:43:27 GMT -5
Skinz I'm with you there (I think there are others here who would agree). ROTK is certainly the greatest story I ever read which is why I've now read it more times than I can count. This is the single biggest reason I've been writing my own epic, to find a different way to satisfy my ROTK fix (finding AOW was another one). Regarding the online version, I have trouble reading for such an extended period of time off of a computer screen. I DO like that version more than the Moss Roberts translation (which, as a die hard ROTK fan you should read, however). The online version is a "corrected" version of the first English language translation, by Brewitt-Taylor. I find the BW translation choppier and it misses some of the detail that Moss Roberts has, but the emotional range in the B-T translation is much better, so that the dramatic passages and dramatic poems read much better. It is more than just the more flowery, older English word choice that B-T employs, there are simply word choices that work much better. I find the Moss Roberts version emotionally flatter, but it does have some cool little details that are lacking in B-T. In any case, both are must reads, in my opinion. By the way, Skinz, I don't know if you've read this or not, but if you like ROTK you should pick up Outlaws of the Marsh another enormous Chinese epic (trans. by Sidney Shapiro). That's my SECOND favorite book (I think it's ID's second favorite, also). Action is on a somewhat smaller scale than RTK, but Outlaws has other aspects such as humor in greater amounts than ROTK. It features more of the common folk whereas ROTK focuses more on nobility. There are more individual martial art move descriptions in Outlaws. There is slightly more supernatural stuff (but still not too much) in Outlaws than ROTK, but I think it is more gracefully integrated into the story than it is in ROTK. Similar to ROTK there is the triumph and tragedy sort of thing and things don't work out too well for the protagonists. Just as the closing in ROTK is magnificent and moving (especially the way the closing poem is translated by Brewitt-Taylor), so is the ending of Outlaws. It is one of the most poetic and poignant scenes ever to close a work of fiction.
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