generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
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Post by generaldu on Feb 7, 2005 14:45:52 GMT -5
To raise the world's consciousness with respect to YSS status does not require us to reappraise Nelson's stature.
In the course of his brilliant career Nelson lost an eye in one battle, his arm in another and ultimately, in his greatest victory at Trafalgar, lost his life (much in the same way as YSS).
The battles that Nelson fought in had greater global implications, in so far as the victors would eventually go on to subjugate much of the world, including vast areas of Asia.
But be that as it may, both men were great military leaders whose accomplishments and physical heroism should be appreciated by all.
And, pragmatically, when it comes to history-deprived American school kids, they are as likely to know as much about Lord Nelson as Ricky Nelson, Ozzie Nelson or half-nelson.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 7, 2005 15:02:48 GMT -5
To add, I don't think Togo was that much of a political strategist/analyst to understand that his victory over russia was Japan's pre-eminenent step towards becoming a world power. We know this because we have the advantage of looking back at history. (Maybe Togo might know by the 1930's but certainly not 1905.) And because Togo's victory was only a first step I doubt Togo saw the true significance much less calculate some prophetic reaction. If he did, I might as well regard him as another Jerimiah or John the Baptist. I think the players of history would know less of the events that are constantly unraveling around them to analyze or manipulate their actions. So that's why I think consipiracy theories are less plausible in times when information is much less accessible.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 7, 2005 15:09:02 GMT -5
"And, pragmatically, when it comes to history-deprived American school kids, they are as likely to know as much about Lord Nelson as Ricky Nelson, Ozzie Nelson or half-nelson."
This is sad but true
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Post by skinz unlogged on Feb 7, 2005 17:26:52 GMT -5
What's sadder is that there are plenty of adults that fall into the same category.
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 7, 2005 20:39:24 GMT -5
To add, I don't think Togo was that much of a political strategist/analyst to understand that his victory over russia was Japan's pre-eminenent step towards becoming a world power. We know this because we have the advantage of looking back at history. (Maybe Togo might know by the 1930's but certainly not 1905.) And because Togo's victory was only a first step I doubt Togo saw the true significance much less calculate some prophetic reaction. If he did, I might as well regard him as another Jerimiah or John the Baptist. I think the players of history would know less of the events that are constantly unraveling around them to analyze or manipulate their actions. So that's why I think consipiracy theories are less plausible in times when information is much less accessible. Yes, but I doubt Toko was living under a rock. He knew he was fighting Russia, he knew Russia was one of several international players in East Asia at the time, that if they were stopped someone else would fill the power vacuum, etc. To say he was that unaware of his context would be akin to saying that the Americans in Iraq are unaware that Iraq has oil. As a military leader he probably had some idea of what was at stake if he won or lost and who might be paying attention (all the Western countries with intersts in the region at the time). But, then again, perhaps Japan left its military leaders in the dark, had no mass media, no adjutants, no strategists, no defense department, and just sent their leaders on missions with blinders on. I will just quote the encyclopedia, since it explains how Korea's de facto annexation occurred with Japan's victory over Russia: "Russia gained control of several of Korea's forests and mines after permission was given to Russia to build and operate the Chinese Eastern Railway across Manchuria. Japan and Russia soon engaged in the Russo-Japanese War in 1904 and 1905. Japanese victory in the conflict put an end to Russian influence in Korea. Shortly afterwards, Japan and the United States, in the Taft-Katsura Agreement, agreed that Japan would be given a free hand in Korea, a departure from previous US statements which had led the Korean King to believe that the United States government would support Korean independence. In return, Japan agreed not to interfere in the American-occupied Philippines. Then-US President Theodore Roosevelt: "To be sure, by treaty it was solemnly covenanted that Korea should remain independent. But Korea itself was helpless to enforce the treaty, and it was out of the question to suppose that any other nation, with no interests of its own at stake, would do for the Koreans what they were utterly unable to do for themselves .. .Korea has shown its utter inability to stand by itself." By the end of 1905, Korea was already a Japanese protectorate. In 1907, Emperor Gojong abdicated (under Japanese influence), and his son became the new Emperor."
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 7, 2005 20:45:13 GMT -5
But, getting back to more important matters, does the show (remember that?) seem like it's just killing time? We're on episode 30 (NJ) and it seems like its been giving endless hints about an impending show-down and doesn't deliver.
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Post by moreshige on Feb 8, 2005 9:41:20 GMT -5
I didn't say admiral Togo was completely in the dark. I'm just saying his statements didn't warrant that much speculation as to how much he's assessing Japan's rising position in the world. His statement about YSS was mainly one of admiration as one admiral to another admiral, and its not to predict Japan's status as a world power. I think it's a little over-reaching at this point. It's interesting that you bring up the Iraqi war; Osama has the advantage of clicking on CNN and seeing a better birdseye view of what's going on in the world. I thought it was interesting that video of him surfaced at a time when US morale was quite low. Korea by this time was a protectorate, meaning that the sphere of influence officially swtiched to Japan before it was annexed and became a colonized nation. This just means that by this point, Japan now had better trading rights over any other nation. So there's a distinction that has to be made. In 1905, the king however weak,was still in power. Technically, Korea was still an autonomous nation. Of course, the sentimentality at court wasn't that unified as you can imagine. There were those that wanted to stay close to China because of their distrust of the west and there were those that wanted to ally with Japan because they wanted Korea to go through its own Meiji Reform. By episode 32-33, there'll be lots of action. I have dish network in NY.
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Post by kathleen34 on Feb 8, 2005 16:29:29 GMT -5
"And, pragmatically, when it comes to history-deprived American school kids, they are as likely to know as much about Lord Nelson as Ricky Nelson, Ozzie Nelson or half-nelson."
so true ... but the important thing is that the American school kids feel good about themselves. Their self-esteem is elevated daily. Let's not have spelling bees because somone will feel badly that they lost. And, it's the ADULTS that are coming up with this garbage.
...sorry if that's a little harsh. History is so important..not revisionist history however ...
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generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
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Post by generaldu on Feb 9, 2005 10:23:16 GMT -5
In our half-baked pop pacifism (as we're busy waging another war) we have lost our understanding that even "war heroes" have symbolic value as role models beyond their literal accomplishments.
Young men and women should know how these great figures of history dealt with adversity just so they might begin to address the vexing developments of their own lives with determination and spirit.
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 9, 2005 10:52:53 GMT -5
I agree with you, General Du, but I think that heros, whether from wartime or peace time, all teach us a lesson through their example of self-sacrifice, discipline, putting off instant gratification for long-term gain, keeping integrity when faced with the corruption inherent in power. Self-esteem is important, as are non-violent ways of conflict resolution, but the balance is waaaay off when a whole generation and a half of people are self-centered, and dare I say spoiled-brat, individualists who couldn't care less about their communities, let alone their country, or how greater goods, like peace time and prosperity, are collectively produced. Not to mention an alarming lack of interest in HOW we go about things, focussing on what short-cuts we can take to get to an outcome.
This reminds me of the General Du of AOW and how he differed from all the other characters that wanted to 'serve the country'. Du obeyed the King's (and government's) legitimate authority, no matter how lame the king was, while the others, except maybe the righteous KDS, hacked and pillaged all who stood in their way on the road to power. Du truly is a relic of the past, as everyone today (whether Korean or not) wants to take the most direct path to power no matter how many bodies or wrecked lives they have to step over, no matter what laws exist (just thinking about Enron and WCOM makes me want to vomit!), etc.
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 9, 2005 11:00:15 GMT -5
I was deprived of viewing the last two dozen episodes of AOW because I was in a part of the country that doesn't get any Korean TV. I haven't quite achieved closure yet , so I apologize if AOW is annoyingly talked out for any of you...
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Post by seven stars on Feb 10, 2005 13:37:04 GMT -5
I don't think KDS is necessarily exempt from that criticism either. Whether he had a righteous desire or not, the end result was the same as the others. People died and nothing changed. Dobang crashed and burned before KDS had even settled in his grave.
As far as this generation goes...
I cannot agree more. Like you said, most of my peers don't particularly care about anything outside of their own small world. There are certainly moments at which most of us have sensed a call to higher things. In most cases, however, those moments remain isolated and undeveloped. Those feelings are easily overpowered by our desire for comfort, entertainment, and a host of other self-serving "virtues".
The worst part is many who would seek to change are so immersed in a culture that reinforces the self-bias that they would scarcely know how to break away from it even if they were to try. I say this from first hand experience.
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Post by ID on Feb 10, 2005 14:53:46 GMT -5
I don't think KDS is necessarily exempt from that criticism either. . KDS....................................................................................... pansy.............................................."more remarks on how much of a girly=man he is" I hate him
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generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
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Post by generaldu on Feb 10, 2005 17:30:16 GMT -5
I was deprived of viewing the last two dozen episodes of AOW because I was in a part of the country that doesn't get any Korean TV. I haven't quite achieved closure yet , so I apologize if AOW is annoyingly talked out for any of you... I don't think that anyone who saw and appreciated AOW would ever tire of talking about it. The story and its interesting and controversial characters generate a lot of lively arguments about various matters of principle, especially the concept of heroism.
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Post by T'ae-bi-mama on Feb 10, 2005 23:19:54 GMT -5
I don't think that anyone who saw and appreciated AOW would ever tire of talking about it. The story and its interesting and controversial characters generate a lot of lively arguments about various matters of principle, especially the concept of heroism. Maybe AOW set too high a standard (along with Wang Guhn) or maybe YSS is just a more difficult subject, given his near mythological standing, but I find this series hard to warm up to. In the last third of AOW when new characters were being introduced at a pretty fast pace, I'd kind of groan and wish that Yi Ui Bang and his band of back-stabbing brothers were still around, but I'd come to appreciate the new guys as their characters developed. With this one it seems that characters are not very complex. They're either good or bad and once they turn bad, they have few sympathetic qualities. Most of them are defined by whether they are an obstacle or boost for YSS, whereas in AOW there were more twists and turns than that (like the wild card Duduel). I think its just the nostalgia speaking...(sigh).
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