generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 9, 2005 17:24:48 GMT -5
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 9, 2005 17:40:03 GMT -5
Thanks Florel! ;D Yes, Richard 1 (the Lionheart), is the English king whom I had intended for that list. He was Saladin's rival during the Third Crusade. In fact, to raise funds for that campaign, King Richard instituted what was called "the Saladin tithe". From what I recall from my history classes, Richard Coeur-de-Lion spoke French as his primary language, so he should be considered "Francophile friendly". It shouldn't be held against him too much by Anglophiles though, he spent so little time during his reign in England he didn't get much of a chance to pick up the language.
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 9, 2005 18:40:05 GMT -5
I just got a little mirthful over the inevitable confusion concerning European monarchs and their ordinal numbers. One number "off" can make a big difference. We in America must now deal with this confusion over our own George(s) Bush I & II. Merci beaucoup, generaldu, de l'explication de tes vers. Je comprends maintenant leur connotation contemporaine. The numbers are, in fact, a huge problem. Sometimes I made spell mistakes between IV and VI or IX and XI without noticing. The most terrible one is the numbers of popes ! How many Johns ? Perhaps twenty three ? It's impossible to memorize the chronological order of all 264 popes. From what I recall from my history classes, Richard Coeur-de-Lion spoke French as his primary language, so he should be considered "Francophile friendly". It shouldn't be held against him too much by Anglophiles though, he spent so little time during his reign in England he didn't get much of a chance to pick up the language. Before the 18th century, most of European monarchs and aristocrats were "francophiles" in cultural sense because French was used as an international language in the upper class. But, political and military situations are more complicated among them. In fact, Philippe Auguste had more troubles with Henry II or Jean sans Terre than with Richard I who was busy with his crusading adventures. And I didn't forget this period concerns BEFORE the formation of "national" states. Philippe Auguste became a national symbol in France only by posterity because of his victory at the Battle of Bouvines. I'm not a francophile in political sense. ;D
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 9, 2005 18:52:37 GMT -5
I opened a new thread on historical military leaders while this thread is destinated for the discussion about ACTUAL military leaders.
|
|
|
Post by ID on Feb 9, 2005 19:30:18 GMT -5
This thread is seriously growing fast. T0o fast for me to catch up.
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 10, 2005 18:15:17 GMT -5
I'm not a francophile in political sense. ;D I'm not either but I'll do a spirited version of La Marseillaise at the least provocation. I must also confess that my knowledge of French is based solely on fragments I recall from my high school days (which overlapped parts of the Johnson and Nixon Administrations.) Americans have a remarkable disdain for the French considering we owe our independence to their assistance. As a New Yorker I must also be grateful for the French gift of The Statue of Liberty, which the U.S. government would not even provide funds to erect. As to Pope(s) John, I can attest to XXIII because he was Pope when I was young.
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 10, 2005 19:27:38 GMT -5
I'm not either but I'll do a spirited version of La Marseillaise at the least provocation. I'll note your advice in my spirit, generaldu. I like french art, architecture, litterature and music. But, as a foreigner living in France, the political domain frustrates me sometimes. (For example, Jean-Marie Le Pen.) Americans have a remarkable disdain for the French considering we owe our independence to their assistance. I'm astonished at the fact that many frenchmen (not all of them, of course) disdain EVERY foreigners and foreign cultures except themselves and their own. (Perhaps the Italian culture would be an exception. France is traditionally an italianophile country.) Sometimes, I find this kind of ego-centric attitude even among "some" Korean nationalists. Therefore, it's a positive phenomen that the new technological support like internet aids international communications. I like your Edwardian satire verses, generaldu. I expect another masterpiece. Cf. I translate the phrase I wrote in French for those who don't know the French language. Merci beaucoup, generaldu, de l'explication de tes vers. Je comprends maintenant leur connotation contemporaine. (Thank you very much, generaldu, for explication of your verses. Now I understand their comtemporary connotation.)
|
|
|
Post by ID on Feb 10, 2005 21:34:05 GMT -5
French nationalists and Korean nationalists are different. We saved France way too many times. {French Revolution,World War 1, World War 2, . No offence, Florel, but it is truly frustrating} But we never saved Korea before. If we did, there wouldn't be NORTH Korea. I guess i'm not too educated on that matter. But, I do think it's sad that the Korean War is "forgotten" by most people.
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 11, 2005 11:26:43 GMT -5
At least, ID, most Koreans remember the Korean War (directly and indirectly) until my generation. I have heard about the war hundred times from my parents and grandparents.
International politics are always taken by interest calculations with very cold spirit. I'm worried what happens now in the World. I think, as a foreigner, french "antiamericanism" and american "antifrancism" are not positive for both countries.
You're right, ID, to remark that french and korean nationalists have different natures. Nevertheless, I think deeply rooted cultural "ego-centrism" could induce xenophobia and Korea is not an exception.
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 14, 2005 9:50:45 GMT -5
French nationalists and Korean nationalists are different. We saved France way too many times. {French Revolution,World War 1, World War 2, . No offence, Florel, but it is truly frustrating} But we never saved Korea before. If we did, there wouldn't be NORTH Korea. I guess i'm not too educated on that matter. But, I do think it's sad that the Korean War is "forgotten" by most people. At least it can be said that the U.S. "saved" South Korea at the expense of some 50,000 American soldiers over a three year period. The war was marked by intense infantry combat and is "forgotten" partly because the U.S. did not achieve complete victory (it was a political embarrassment at the time) and also because the Spartan American ethic of that period called for the soldier to do his duty and keep quiet about it afterwards. In recent years Korean vets have been more vocal and have harrowing tales to tell. A case can be made for the well-intentioned and heroic U.S. assistance to France and England in WW I, although American forces were ill-prepared and ill-equipped. But in WW II, France was to a large extent a silent partner to Germany after the Armistice so its "liberation" by Allied forces was more in keeping with Allied progaganda than political reality (the heroic activities of the "French Resistance" notwithstanding). A growing appreciation of the true nature of France's role in WW II is what feeds some of the recent animosity towards France in the U.S. Of course, when it comes to cultural arrogance in general, I think we Americans would unfortunately be at the head of the line.
|
|
|
Post by Aging Warrior on Feb 14, 2005 15:57:41 GMT -5
We saved France way too many times. {French Revolution,World War 1, World War 2, . We saved France during the Fench Revolution?
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 14, 2005 16:24:50 GMT -5
We saved France during the Fench Revolution? I left that one alone. If we did "save" France I'd hate to think how they would have fared if we didn't.
|
|
|
Post by ID on Feb 14, 2005 17:31:23 GMT -5
OK,OK. Maybe we didn't SAVE them. But we Supported them during the French Revolution. They better say thamls
|
|
|
Post by florel on Feb 14, 2005 17:48:23 GMT -5
The French king Louis XVI supported the American Revolution because he was pleased with a great loss of his British royal enemy. But, ironically, the American Revolution inspirited the French Revolution.
|
|
generaldu
Senior Addict
The subway charms us so, where balmy breezes blow, to and fro. - Lorenz Hart - "Manhattan"
Posts: 312
|
Post by generaldu on Feb 14, 2005 18:26:46 GMT -5
It looks like America had testy relations with both Britain and France shortly after achieving independence, though.
|
|