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Post by tim on Oct 20, 2005 23:38:51 GMT -5
hmm... yeah. but it's important to know your allies as much as it is to know your enemies. they film alot on the background of Japan (about Oda Nobunaga's and Hideyoshi's conquest, etc.) and not alot on Ming. but let me get to the point which bothers me the most. You guys have been great and helped me understand alot, but i still do not understand why the Mings were so friendly with the Japanese. This drama portrays it as though the Mings do not have the slightest desire to fight the Japanese, and like I said, the Japanese invaded Ming a 100 years before Yi Soon Shin was even born.
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Post by BungalowDweller on Oct 21, 2005 21:13:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the background about the Chinese, Florel! It rounds out my understanding of the events. ;D
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Post by pakyownage4eva on Oct 22, 2005 21:37:48 GMT -5
I can understand Ming's tepid attitude but they were for the most part, a waste of space in Chosun who harassed the people as much as the Japanese did.
There is bias but what can you expect from a Korean director? Chinese victories are omitted, but so is the Battle of Haeng Ju led by Kwon Yul, in which women helped a force of around 2000, I believe, kill 10,000 out of 30,000 Japanese.
Also, in history, I think Jin Lin could not praise Admiral Yi enough in the letters he sent to the royal court.
I have almost gone in tears watching the Admiral having to keep his frustration in...how could the king and the royal court be so dense?....
If Admiral Yi really took off his armor in the final battle, hell, I'm not surprised...I wouldn't have minded dying either after being treated like **** for my entire life.
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Post by WangKon on Oct 23, 2005 0:24:21 GMT -5
Hello all. I don't come to this message board often, but I would like to add my two cents. Yes the Ming are not portrayed that much in this drama and when they are, they are not done so in a flattering light.
Looking at Korean primary sources, it is clear that the Ming troops were a nusance at times and the Ming generals hard to deal with. Even when the Korean King was driven to Uija on the Manchurian border, there was reluctance to request Ming forces because the ministers had heard that the Ming soliders stationed in the Liaodong Penninsula were a roudy bunch. In all fairness, border troops in times of peace are usually not the best quality anywhere in both officers and individual soliders. Furthermore, it was the late 16th century the Ming was in advanced state of decline and would fall in about 50 years to the Manchu. At this stage, many of the officers of the army was about as corrupt as the civl government. It's not hard to imagine Ming generals highly suseptible to bribery, especially in a war on a foreign land, where the fight was not really theirs. It would be hard to get motivated.
Tim, you also have to remember that the Chinese didn't have the same kind of feelings towards the Japanese back in the late 16th century that they have now. This was the first large scale conflict the Chinese had with the Japanese since Tang destroyed the Japanese fleet off the Korean coast during Korea's three kingdoms times. They don't have as much of a grudge against Japan as they do now. You seem to be projecting current feelings on what the Chinese should of been doing or thinking 400 years ago.
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Post by ginnycat5 on Oct 23, 2005 11:51:03 GMT -5
Another reason for their sitting on their hands during battles is maybe they thought they would not be judged as derelict in their duty so long as the Japanese did not get across the border and attack Ming territory. Their government was far away and just as self-interested as the generals. It isn't as if they had feelings of brotherhood with the Chosunese, after all, Chosun was a vassal state and inferior, in their eyes. (I think they come off as despicable and I want to smack them.)
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Post by tim on Oct 23, 2005 12:32:41 GMT -5
um... actually, Japan has invaded China during the Ming dynasty. There is a Ming admiral, like YSS, tho not as great and famous, who fought off the Japanese invaders. You see, according to Chinese sources, the Japanese actually tried invading Ming directly. it was when the Ming drove them out that Hideyoshi decided to attack Korea first and then to Ming.
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Post by florel on Oct 23, 2005 15:12:33 GMT -5
Tim, are you referring to Qi Jiguang (1528-1588) ? In fact, when Li Rusong recovered Pyong-yang Castle with his Liaodong troops, the role of the Chinese Southern army was primordial. The Southern army used the tactics of Qi Jiguang who fought against the Wako, the Japanese pirates along the east coast of China. They also fought very well and effectively against the Japanese regular army in Chosun. The Chosun royal court adored the Chinese Southern army and wished that the imperial court would have sent more of them. But, unfortunately, there were frictions between Southern and Northern armies, so the Chinese Supreme Commander Li Rusong insisted that he wanted fight only along with the Northern army. It was the Northern army who was almost always defeated by the Japanese and who spent most of time to plunder Chosunese villages. I guess Liu Ting also led a Northern army. (He particiapted in the Battle of Sarhu against the Manchus in 1619.) It is said that Qi Jiguang's tactics gave an influence on the Chosun army when Yu Sung-Ryong installed hun ryun do gam, a new military academy, in August 1593 in Seoul and reformed the Chosun army. Cf. You can also read JK's posting about the role of the Ming army in Chosun in History & fiction thread (page 4).
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Post by tim on Oct 23, 2005 18:48:26 GMT -5
o wow. yeah, i was referring to him, it's just that i thought no one else here know who he is. but yeah, i was talking about Qi Jiguang. I didn't know I've started such a long arguement... ok, i'll shut up now.
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Post by florel on Oct 23, 2005 19:15:27 GMT -5
Tim, please don't be taciturn. It's interesting to hear of the Chinese opinion and to exchange different view points.
If the Ming court sent the Southern army instead of the Northern one, the ally would possibly have finished the war in 1592 instead of 1598. But in addition to internal conflicts, it was certainly more costly to dispatch troops from South China... well...
Regarding Mings played by Korea actors in the drama, it seems to me that they are not real Chineses especially because of their gesture. When I saw a few of Chinese historical dramas and movies, the Chinese showed an extremely reverent gesture when they referred to an emperor (I don't know how you call this gesture in Chinese or in English). But IYSS Ming commanders never showed an authentic Chinese gesture !
I also agree with you that the dramatists didn't study much about Chinese history comparing with Japanese one. (I learned the general history of China when I was a university student. ;D)
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Post by BungalowDweller on Oct 24, 2005 10:57:20 GMT -5
Tim, please don't be taciturn. It's interesting to hear of the Chinese opinion and to exchange different view points. Yeah, Tim! Welcome! Interesting viewpoint!
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Post by skinz on Oct 24, 2005 10:58:49 GMT -5
um... actually, Japan has invaded China during the Ming dynasty. There is a Ming admiral, like YSS, tho not as great and famous, who fought off the Japanese invaders. You see, according to Chinese sources, the Japanese actually tried invading Ming directly. it was when the Ming drove them out that Hideyoshi decided to attack Korea first and then to Ming. Actually Japan never "officially" tried to invade Ming before the Imjin War in 1592, it was mostly the Wako (Japanese pirates). The Wako was never part of the organize military government at that time, they were just another clan fighting in Japan civil war. It was the same in Korea also where the Wako constantly abused its shores. I would love to know more about the Ming officials, but sadly, their information is really hard to find. That could also be the reason that less was shown on the Mings. All the informations on the important Ming figures in the Imjin War were ,I think, based on Korean Sources.
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Post by cafetacbva on Oct 24, 2005 17:17:07 GMT -5
There is only 3 show left I think ?
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Post by tim on Oct 24, 2005 19:26:53 GMT -5
yeah, skinz. You are right, they never officially tried to invade Ming. However, because they were pirates, the conspiracy they'd done to the Chinese are greater than what the Japanese army did to the Koreans. Remember, an official war is being controlled by a country's political leader, while raging outlaws follow no rules and do whatever they want to the people that they conquered. I know the Japanese did the same things to Koreans, I'm just assuming that with pirates, it would be worse. Besides, the Chinese are more humiliated to losing to a bunch of pirates than losing to a whole country. It is difficult to learn more about the Ming officials, I didn't even heard of even one of the Ming generals in the Imjin War before, not even when I was studying history in China. My father, who was a Chinese History major, said he only HEARD of one of the Ming generals (forgot who it was. Think it was Deng Zi Long, but not sure). O, I thought everyone was getting annoyed with me defending the Mings, cause most of y'all are Koreans.
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Post by chigirl68 on Oct 25, 2005 7:07:37 GMT -5
There is only 3 show left I think ? We saw in Chicago ep. 102 on Mon 10/24. There are 104 episodes so the last on will air on Monday 10/31 (Halloween). Hopefully we will see the 2 special episodes with subtitles.
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Post by Skinz UL on Oct 25, 2005 8:14:05 GMT -5
yeah, skinz. You are right, they never officially tried to invade Ming. However, because they were pirates, the conspiracy they'd done to the Chinese are greater than what the Japanese army did to the Koreans. Remember, an official war is being controlled by a country's political leader, while raging outlaws follow no rules and do whatever they want to the people that they conquered. Point well taken, I do agree with you O, I thought everyone was getting annoyed with me defending the Mings, cause most of y'all are Koreans. I'm not Korean nor asian. I'm a young black male who's fond on world history. Most of us are not Koreans, Koreans members on this board are Florel, Choko, Morishige, and a couple a few that drop here and there. Hey, Tim your chinese right? so defend all you want. There shouldn't be no outcry because you want to see more on your country involvement in the Imjin war.
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