|
Post by moreshige on May 2, 2005 13:35:39 GMT -5
I don't know how the Chosun military officers felt about literati officials. I can only mention some well-known general historical facts. In real history, military officials were inferior to literati officials. The important military posts such as Minister of War were inaccessible for military officers. Perhaps they could have been disatisfied with this reality. But docile military leaders of Chosun didn't try to rise in insurrection against powerful literati bureaucrats. They always retained social privileges as member of aristocratic class. They just had some limitation of promotion in some important high governmental posts. But we know there were military insurrections during Koryo dynasty. I just wonder why it didn't happen later as well. Or is this just a case of the military leaders' realization to not make the same mistakes from the past? Or was there some bureaucratic or social system set in motion during Chosun that discouraged military insurgency?
|
|
|
Post by florel on May 2, 2005 18:46:55 GMT -5
But we know there were military insurrections during Koryo dynasty. I just wonder why it didn't happen later as well. Or is this just a case of the military leaders' realization to not make the same mistakes from the past? Or was there some bureaucratic or social system set in motion during Chosun that discouraged military insurgency? The answer is the last one. I guess I have already made mention of this subject. Okay, I would like to present more clear exposition. During Koryo period, regional military leaders could retain private soldiers. The central government's control on local military men was very weak and they even constructed a kind of lord and vassal relationship based on personal or regional relations. From the end of Koryo dynasty, the ruling class analysed problems (especially that of AOW's) and brought a huge reform on military system. The third king of Chosun, Taejong (reigned 1401-1418) put the ban on private soldiers. Evidently Chosun kings and confucian bureaucrats feared the arrival of the 2nd age of warriors. Chosun constructed highly centralized literati and military bureaucracy. The specificity of Chosun military system can be found in the introduction of Military Examination. Even a lower rank lieutenant was selected and dispatched by the central governement. Provincial military officers, under strict control of Seoul, were appointed and sent to their posts by the central government's decision. They continuously changed their posts every two or three years and they could'nt move their troops out of their jurisdictional territory without permission. And they couldn't live with their family in their provincial workplace. Do you remember YSS took leave of his family when he became Naval Commander ? What would happen to the family of a provincial military leader if he rose in insurrection ?
|
|
|
Post by moreshige on May 3, 2005 12:04:31 GMT -5
I see. That explains a lot. From my readings, I remember towards the end of Unified Silla period and the start of Koryo, there were a number of castle-lordships that were independent of direct government control. Wang gun helped bring about the ressurection of old Koguryo but in many ways i.e through marriage ties he also retained these castle-lordships in exchange for their loyalties. Which meant that they were allowed to keep private retainers. Did these "dukes" continue to exist in Chosun with private land+slaves/servants but without their private 'armies' once the military became more centralized? I raise these questions because I'm trying to compare Chosun's situation with feudalistic Japan. Oda, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu basically unified a country full of 'tiny' independent private estates each responsible for raising its own men,arms, food and supplies. Chosun had the problem or responsibility of providing for all free citizens.
|
|
|
Post by TheBo on May 3, 2005 15:29:46 GMT -5
Bo, we are not as sophisticated as you... That's "sophisticado," my good woman. ;D Your explanations (with the able augmentation of moreshige) of the military situation in feudal Korea and Japan seems to parallel developments in feudal Europe. In order to make a country, it seems, everyone had to break up the clans. Or was it the clams... Bo
|
|
|
Post by florel on May 3, 2005 17:45:15 GMT -5
Ancient China and Korea have already accomplished the centralization of political power when Medieval Europe was entering in feudal period. "Dukes" ( hojok) of Unified Silla have already brought to downfall in Early Koryo period, from the reign of king Seongjong (981-997). They lost political and military powers and just excercised small power over local folks. They formed a kind of middle class named " hyang-li" until the end of Chosun period. Cf. This is an information (in korean language) about provincial administative organization in Medieval Korea. kr.encycl.yahoo.com/enc/info.html?key=1129740 (in Korean) The Koryo military leaders were different from Shilla "dukes". But they could create their own private forces because the military system of Koryo was not as centralized as that of Chosun. During Koryo period, low and middle rank military officers were recruited in situ.
|
|
|
Post by TheBo on May 4, 2005 9:43:00 GMT -5
Ancient China and Korea have already accomplished the centralization of political power when Medieval Europe was entering in feudal period.... Well, I wasn't trying to imply anything to the contrary. I just meant that when a country comes out of its feudal system, it involves a the breaking up of many small, self-interested groups for the "greater good" of the whole. Everyone goes through it. I'll put my fashion question under "tangents" so skinz won't get all bothered. ;D Bo
|
|
|
Post by florel on May 4, 2005 11:46:20 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't trying to imply anything to the contrary. I just meant that when a country comes out of its feudal system, it involves a the breaking up of many small, self-interested groups for the "greater good" of the whole. Everyone goes through it. I'll put my fashion question under "tangents" so skinz won't get all bothered. ;D Bo I didn't intend to oppose you, Bo. I just added a precision. Hmm... Hmm... ;D Even though the feudalism of European style didn't exist in Asian countries except Japan, this is another problem and your observation on general transformation is quite legitimate. And I never banned some tangents on this board if they are moderate. ;D
|
|
|
Post by TheBo on May 4, 2005 12:21:15 GMT -5
I didn't intend to oppose you, Bo. I just added a precision.... And I never banned some tangents on this board if they are moderate. Well, if we're using precision here, that's another matter altogether...in which case, I think you want "boycotted" (attempted to exclude) instead of "banned" (refused to allow)... Okay, I'll stop being prickley. Perhaps I am not understanding you. You say that the Koryu period involved an attempt by Wang Gun (my grasp of the Korean timeline is a little sketchy, to say the least, so I tend to mix up who was in power when, please excuse me) to bring under control the power of the Silla dukes and/or castleholders, and that the regional military commanders had a vassal/lord relationship in their districts, but that Korea did not go through a feudal period. It sounds fairly feudal to me. Are you saying the power of the king was always central and paramount? The Chosun court in YSS constantly refers to Ming as the "mother country"--did Korea (Chosun, Koryu, whatever they called themselves) simply not exist at a time when China was coming out of its medieval period? Here we are, treating you like a really, really, easy history book, it looks up the answers by itself. In my defense, I did go to the Korean link you put up...it's pretty, it sure is...LOL. Bo
|
|
|
Post by moreshige unlogged on May 4, 2005 12:30:53 GMT -5
Well, if we're using precision here, that's another matter altogether...in which case, I think you want "boycotted" (attempted to exclude) instead of "banned" (refused to allow)... Okay, I'll stop being prickley. Perhaps I am not understanding you. You say that the Koryu period involved an attempt by Wang Gun (my grasp of the Korean timeline is a little sketchy, to say the least, so I tend to mix up who was in power when, please excuse me) to bring under control the power of the Silla dukes and/or castleholders, and that the regional military commanders had a vassal/lord relationship in their districts, but that Korea did not go through a feudal period. It sounds fairly feudal to me. Are you saying the power of the king was always central and paramount? The Chosun court in YSS constantly refers to Ming as the "mother country"--did Korea (Chosun, Koryu, whatever they called themselves) simply not exist at a time when China was coming out of its medieval period? Here we are, treating you like a really, really, easy history book, it looks up the answers by itself. In my defense, I did go to the Korean link you put up...it's pretty, it sure is...LOL. Bo I see your cofusion, Bo. The situation in the Korean penninsula was more complicated than that. The "dukedoms" were a minority that were allowed to exisit within the centralized monarchy under Silla. The majority of subjects were under direct rule.
|
|
|
Post by TheBo on May 4, 2005 12:57:55 GMT -5
... The "dukedoms" were a minority that were allowed to exisit within the centralized monarchy under Silla. The majority of subjects were under direct rule. Okay, thanks, mo-re, , that does help. I do plan to study up on some of this history, because I'm getting pretty curious, but right now, I'm just trying to learn to count...gong, il, ee, sah, sahm...I mean, sahm, sah... Bo
|
|
|
Post by moreshige on May 4, 2005 13:07:04 GMT -5
The Chosun court in YSS constantly refers to Ming as the "mother country"--did Korea (Chosun, Koryu, whatever they called themselves) simply not exist at a time when China was coming out of its medieval period? Bo The reason why the Choson court refers to Ming as a "mother country" or more accurately "the father country" is because of their understanding of a Confucian notion of hierarchy in the universe. It's more like saying, "Hey, China we believe, respect and acknowledge you're #1". The Chosun court is not saying that they (Korea) originated from China nor was Chosun implying they're a vassal state to Ming ie.like during the Mongol empire. In reality, it's more of a diplomatic ploy used by the Chosun court with the end result of continued peaceful co-existence and non-interference between the two countries. And it worked for many many years. "Korea" itself exisited for thousands of years. Before the unified Silla period, there were different Korean states or kingdoms. Basically, what happened was that they all went to war against each other with Silla being the victor which resulted in the Unified Silla period. It's not too different from ancient Greece when competing city-states such as Athens and Sparta wared against each other. Unified Silla lasted about 250 years or so until Wang Guhn came into the scene. He and his supporters wanted to ressurect the old korean kingdom of Koguryo (one of the four korean kingdoms that vied for control of Korea before unified Silla period). Wang Guhn and his supporters won and established "Koryo" which as you can see is derived from Koguryo, a new Koguryo if you will. Well, I hope this explains some confusion.
|
|
|
Post by moreshige on May 4, 2005 13:24:15 GMT -5
Okay, thanks, mo-re, , that does help. I do plan to study up on some of this history, because I'm getting pretty curious, but right now, I'm just trying to learn to count...gong, il, ee, sah, sahm...I mean, sahm, sah... Bo I'll also add that Japan was purely or fully Fuedalistic. That's so cool, maybe one day we can all converse in Korean. I also need to learn more even though I'm at an intermediate speaking level. And my writing and reading skills are horrendous.That's why I envy and admire people like Florel who's truly bilingual or should I say trilingual.
|
|
|
Post by TheBo on May 4, 2005 13:50:48 GMT -5
After reading Morrie's (excellent) posts, I experienced an enlightenment. When I say feudal, I am using it to describe a time in the history of a country when the power of government is hierarchic, rather than central, where you and Florel are using it more fully to mean (and I quote from the Houghton-Mifflin online dictionary):
#1 A political and economic system ... based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.
I think I'm using it in the second dictionary sense: #2 A political, economic, or social order resembling this medieval system.
Is that fair? It just seems to me that all modern countries have had to go through a period, whether longer or shorter, when power was not centralized (or federal) in nature, but rather, given to a leader by consent or by coercion, and also, in order for a country to modernize, that hierarchic system had to be overcome.
Bo
|
|
|
Post by florel on May 4, 2005 16:37:55 GMT -5
After reading Morrie's (excellent) posts, I experienced an enlightenment. When I say feudal, I am using it to describe a time in the history of a country when the power of government is hierarchic, rather than central, where you and Florel are using it more fully to mean (and I quote from the Houghton-Mifflin online dictionary): #1 A political and economic system ... based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture. I think I'm using it in the second dictionary sense: #2 A political, economic, or social order resembling this medieval system. Is that fair? It just seems to me that all modern countries have had to go through a period, whether longer or shorter, when power was not centralized (or federal) in nature, but rather, given to a leader by consent or by coercion, and also, in order for a country to modernize, that hierarchic system had to be overcome. Bo Bo, your definition is very very fair. ;D Moreshige and I understood and used the term "feudal" with its strictly narrow meaning. Moreshige, my English speaking is not so good. I'm sure that you will not understand my OOrrrible Aksang (horrible accent). I put that Korean link for Moreshige, but it seems that it was not helpful for him. lol
|
|
|
Post by florel on May 4, 2005 17:09:22 GMT -5
Well, if we're using precision here, that's another matter altogether...in which case, I think you want "boycotted" (attempted to exclude) instead of "banned" (refused to allow)... Okay, I'll stop being prickley. Bo, nor boycott neither ban of tangents. Don't you remember that I posted as many tangents as you ? And I liked your joke postings. Ehhhh... How about this one ? Let me tell you about a Korean folklore. It's situated just before the Imjin War, so in YSS's time. "... Some well-educated Joseon-dynasty officials did not take the San-shin [Korean mountain divinities] too seriously and joked around with its image. It is said that Samgak-san [Three Crags Mountain, a.k.a. Bugak-san or Northern Crags Mountain], the northern guardian of Seoul, is so picturesque that its valleys became recreational sites from early in Joseon. During the 'Golden Age' of the 16th Century, a lot of secret cottages were built near a cave called Mil-deok on the northeastern slope, and men and women of loose morals gathered there to have illicit affairs (fore-runners to today's 'Love Motels'!). Even women of the Yangban [noble] class came to have their fun. A young Neo-Confucian scholar named Yi Hang-bok heard of these notorious cottages, and disapproved. On the First Full Moon he disguised himself as a San-shin by wearing a false long white beard and wig, and a royal red gown. In the moon-lit evening he seated himself with a dignified air on a high rock near the cottages. Women passed below him on their way to the cottages, having pretended to be going to offer customary worship to the Bugak-San-shin. Yi Hang-bok called out to them: "I'm the San-shin here! I was so deeply moved the sincerity of your offerings that I've appeared here to forgive your misconduct. Those who confess their sins shall be forgiven. But those who conceal their misconduct shall be punished severely!" So the startled, frightened women all confessed their illicit affairs in detail. The next few days, Yi Hang-bok had a great time spreading the hot gossip all over Seoul, causing uproars in many noble and plain houses. The corruption of morals became a matter of grave concern, and ultimately the king had the secret cottages and cave destroyed." the story from... san-shin.org/stories2.html Cf. Yi Hang-bok was the son-in-law of Gen. Kwon Yul and the best friend of the diplomat Yi Duk-Hyung. I guess this folk story is fictional as many other folklores. And I found in it Confucian propaganda against women and against folk beliefs. Anyway, at least, it's based on the real character of Yi Hang-Bok. A famous naughty boy, he is notorious for his bitter humor sense and poignant sarcasm. But, in IYSS drama, he is depicted as very serious man and he never makes a joke. (dommage !) You will see him from Episode 57. Yi Hang-Bok
|
|