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Post by TheBo on Apr 26, 2005 11:23:36 GMT -5
I googled to verify. Hocho is Piper nigrum L., that is to say Pepper. Now, there's a sentence I'd never have imagined to be proper usage when I was in my high school Secretarial Office Practice class-- I googled to verify.The Internet and television, the two great modifiers of language. ;D Thanks, Florel, for the info on hocho/huchu. To me, this whole exchange resembles a comedy routine from the 1930s. I am most diverted. Bo
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Post by florel on Apr 26, 2005 16:35:32 GMT -5
Now, there's a sentence I'd never have imagined to be proper usage when I was in my high school Secretarial Office Practice class-- I googled to verify.The Internet and television, the two great modifiers of language. ;D The neologism "to google" is also spreading among french internet users with a verbal form googler. It's an international vocabulary. I found its definition and usage. "to google"Sometimes, I like use this expression with an extensive usage. ;D For example, I can say.. "J'ai google mon refrigerateur pour trouver quelques choses mangeables." (I googled my fridge to find something eatable.)
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Post by TheBo on Apr 27, 2005 9:51:03 GMT -5
...For example, I can say.."J'ai google mon refrigerateur pour trouver quelques choses mangeables." (I googled my fridge to find something eatable.) ACK! You CANNOT! Ack! I will not allow this! Oh, merde! Hah, hah, hah! Seriously, don't the French have language police? Unlike here, where there's only me? ;D Can this possibly be allowed? Bo
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Post by chigirl68 on Apr 27, 2005 10:51:00 GMT -5
Quite right Bo. The french update their language I think every year. Not like how we make up words like crazy.
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Post by TheBo on Apr 27, 2005 11:59:46 GMT -5
Quite right Bo. The french update their language I think every year. Not like how we make up words like crazy. It's not word coinage that bothers me--that's been part of our language from day 1. It's the free conversion of usage (nouns turn into verbs - "We conferenced on Tuesday," "How will this impact me?") and ignorance of definition. One of my current pet peeves is the misuse of the term "factoid" which, as you all know, means "a small item of information that appears to be true but actually is false," (thus, the suffix "-oid," meaning resembling, having the appearance of) rather than "a small, interesting fact," which is the current usage. That one went right down the tubes as soon as it hit the airwaves, thanks to ignorant television writers. I won't even get into all the people who believe that "myself" is an elegant replacement for the word "me." Oops. Have to sniff or I may implode with indignation. Bo
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Post by florel on Apr 27, 2005 16:35:14 GMT -5
The french linguistic purism is notorious. The policemen of the Academie Francaise have cried out against the "contamination" of French by Anglicism. But the Internet and television highly influence the young French. (French TV stations are airing lots of American TV productions.) Thirty or fourty years ago, the use of english words was strictly prohibited. But I notice lots of English vocabularies are entering in French. And "Franglais" is an extreme case. How to Speak Franglais(I found this site funny.) But I cannot use Franglais or slangs such as "googler" for formal speech or writing. One of my friends, who is a linguistic purist, once blamed me because I used some Wallon vocabularies in a official document. (Wallon is Belgian French.) She also insisted that "merde" is not French. You should utter "Mince" instead of "Merde" before her. ;D But it's off topic and it would be better to return to our main subject.
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jk
New Addict
Posts: 8
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Post by jk on Apr 28, 2005 1:57:37 GMT -5
Ming involvement helped Chosun overall, but it also put more burden on Chosun's shoulder.
Ming first sent 3000 border guard troops led by Jo Seung-hun(Korean pronounciation). Jo was misinformed and underestimated the tactical capability of Japanese forces led by Konishi, which was stationed at Pyong-Yang castle(actually a walled city) at that time. Jo tried to recapture Pyong-Yang by himself but failed.
Then about 45000-50000 Ming troops led by gen. Yi Yeo-song(Li Rusong in Chinese) arrived. His army was largely consist of Northern army from northeastern territories which was mainly based on heavy cavalry, and some Southern army from southern provinces of China which was mainly based on foot soldiers and heavy fire arms.
It was the Southern army using tactics developed by famous Ming general 'Qi Jiguang' and had many battle experiences with Japanese pirates known as 'wako'. But there existed some friction between Southern and Northern army, and since their supreme commander Li was also a commander of Northern army, this has caused some trouble as Li strongly insisted to lead the battle with his not-so-competent Northern army rather than relying on Southern army. (heavy cavalry was proved to be non-effective in general against musket & lance combination in many battles)
Upon arrival, over 40000 Ming forces aided by 10000 Chosun force recaptured Pyong-Yang with ease and Chosun officials who witnessed the battle were especially impressed with Ming's Southern army for their highly sophisticated utilization of field artillery.
Konishi and his army retreated to Seoul, and Li hastily pursuited them. Then Li faced big loss at the battle of Byok-je-gwan, by counter attack from combined Japanese forces of 70000 men led by gen. Kobayakawa. Li retreated back to Pyong-yang, and it was a big dissapointment that Ming forces either lose, or avoid most battles thereafter. Their motivation was low(since Chosun wasn't their homeland) and only seeked for negotiation after losing some big battles.
Then double-suffering of Chosun people began. It was especially Ming's Northern army that had worst reputation among Chosun people, infamously known to spend more of their time pillaging villages(they often killed Chosun civilians and disguised them as Japanese) than fighting battles. Chosun court also had hard time feeding and supporting huge army unwilling to fight along with its own army, while famine was spreading widely across the country.
But the existence of Ming army, by itself, helped Chosun by limiting strategic moves of Japanese forces(they thought they might have to deal with army of millions. ;D), thus slowing down the pace of the war. Also, Ming officers from Southern army contributed to the reformation of Chosun land forces by introducing Qi Jiguang's tactics.
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Post by Skinz Unlogged on Apr 28, 2005 8:15:53 GMT -5
Thank you, JK.
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Post by moreshige on Apr 28, 2005 9:03:32 GMT -5
I think what I wrote in the other thread seems more appropiate here.
All of YSS captains were real historical figures. What the drama doesn't show is that YSS had more than the 6 blue-coated captains we see in the show. Yss had several more captains under him.
And as for the navies, there were four. In the show we are mainly shown YSS's left cholla navy and Won Kyun's right kyung sang navy.
Right cholla navy was headed by Yi Ok-ki whom we don't see much of in the show. He was a competant leader who helped YSS from the beginning (battle of Ok po). Left kyung sang navy's leader, Pak Hong, was a coward who fled the moment he saw the Japanese make their landing. And consequently, much of kyung sang province was decimated.
YSS's captains we know in the show are:
Yi Soon-shin (bang dap chum sa).....charge of budget Shin Ho (Nak an Gun su).....charge of food supply Uh Young Dahm (kwan Yang Hyun gam)....charge of maps Chung Eun (Nokdo mahn ho).......charge of cannons Kim Wahn (sa do chum sa) ......monkey man Kwon Jun (Sunchon magistrate)....YSS's right hand man
Interesting facts during the first battle of Ok Po'
In YSS's own words.....
1.) "Chung Eun, captain from Nokdo," holed and destroyed 2 large enemy pavilion vessels with cannon fire and burned them completely by attacks in cooperation with other ships, cut off 3 Japanese heads, and rescued 2 Korean prisioners of war"
2.) "Sunchon magistrate, Kwon Jun, forgetting about himself, pentetrated the enemy position first, breaking and capturing one large enemy pavilion vessel, and beheading 10 Japanese warriors including the Commander, and bringing back a Korean prisoner of war....."
And there were heroics of other YSS's captains but they are not in the show. Here's another...
YSS writes..... 3.) "Yong -tam also dashed forward, breaking and capturing one large pavilion vessel. He hit the enemy commander with an arrow, and brought him back to my ship, but before interrogation he fell dead without speaking, so I ordered his head to be cut off."
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Post by TheBo on Apr 28, 2005 9:34:01 GMT -5
"How to Speak Franglais" (I found this site funny.) ...One of my friends...insisted that "merde" is not French. You should utter "Mince" instead of "Merde" before her. But it's off topic and it would be better to return to our main subject. It's a very funny site. Leg shirt, indeed. Mince? That just can't be right! I will never be able to eat mince pie again. Hah, hah. Here's a funny, then I promise I'll stop. There's an article in the papers today about a new design for prescription medicine bottles. My Bob read the article from New York metro.com on line and mentioned to me that they changed some of the wording on the label because Spanish speakers were having trouble with it. The reason, he said, was that the word "daily" means "eleven" in Spanish and, therefore, some hapless souls were apparently taking eleven pills a day. I said to him, that's ridiculous, the word for "eleven" in Spanish is "once" (pronounced "ohn-say"), not "daily." I said, are you sure it says that? Are you saying this idiot wrote an article stating that the word "daily" means "eleven" in Spanish, and it didn't even occur to him or her to LOOK IT UP? Bob says, "No, that's what it says, who am I supposed to believe, my girlfriend (who speaks Spanish) or the newspaper?" Oh, poor, hapless Bob. Here is what the article says: [numbered list of changes] (7) Take “daily.” [The designer] avoided using the word once on the label, since it means eleven in Spanish.Bob's interpretation? She avoided using the word "daily" one time on the label, because it (daily) means "eleven." Is it poor punctuation? I think so. Is my Bob kind of a goober? Well, yeah, but I love him...and this just boils down to poor grammar. I am vindicated. Oh, all right, stop pulling on my sleeve. I'll stay on topic. But in my defense, none of you other guys were talking about anything else yesterday, so at least we were discussing something. And as we all know, English has seeped into Korean left and right and over the top of the dike. Bo
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Post by Skinz Unlogged on Apr 28, 2005 9:44:33 GMT -5
My Bob read the article from New York metro.com on line and mentioned to me that they changed some of the wording on the label because Spanish speakers were having trouble with it. The reason, he said, was that the word "daily" means "eleven" in Spanish and, therefore, some hapless souls were apparently taking eleven pills a day. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! I just spilled my coffee all over the place. You just made my day. ;D
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Post by TheBo on Apr 28, 2005 9:55:41 GMT -5
YSS's captains we know in the show are: Yi Soon-shin (bang dap chum sa).....charge of budget Shin Ho (Nak an Gun su).....charge of food supply Uh Young Dahm (kwan Yang Hyun gam)....charge of maps Chung Eun (Nokdo mahn ho).......charge of cannons Kim Wahn (sa do chum sa) ......monkey man Kwon Jun (Sunchon magistrate)....YSS's right hand man Confused, confused. Bang Dap, Nak-an, Kwan-yang are places, right, since I know that Nok-do, Sa-do and Sunchon are. What means chum sa, gun su, hyun gam and mahn ho? Also, if some of the navy guys are magistrates, why are they so rude about YSS being one (that's a question of psychology, not definition, but still). The rest of your post is most interesting. Sometimes I have to read this stuff many times after watching the show to figure out how it all fits together; I appreciate your reposting this. Bo
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Post by florel on Apr 28, 2005 14:06:32 GMT -5
Confused, confused. Bang Dap, Nak-an, Kwan-yang are places, right, since I know that Nok-do, Sa-do and Sunchon are. What means chum sa, gun su, hyun gam and mahn ho? Also, if some of the navy guys are magistrates, why are they so rude about YSS being one (that's a question of psychology, not definition, but still). Bo, your confusion comes from translation problem. As I know, "Magistrate of Moresighe" is translated into "Constable" in your show subtitles. Kwon Jun is busa of Suncheon. This title belongs to the 3rd Junior rank while the Commander (YSS) has the 3rd Senior rank. Kwon Jun is # 2 of Left Cholla Navy by his rank. YSS of Bang-Dap (homonym) and Kim Wan also have the 3rd Junior rank with the title of chumsa but they are inferior to busa because they retain pure military office. In your subtitles, hyungam is translated as Magistrate. It's the 6th Junior Rank. YSS was hyungam of Jung-Eup before he became Navy Commander. In addition, Jung-Eup is not under the jurisdiction of Left or Right Cholla Naval Stations. In Chosun Bureaucracy System, there are two kind of officials : literati officials ( mun-gwan) and military officials ( mu-gwan). Literati bureaucrats were considered higher than military officers even though they have same ranks. Susa (Navy Commander), Chumsa, Manho (Captain) are pure military offices. Busa (Constable) is a literati official (so he has administrative and judicial tasks), but he has at the same time the title and function of military Chumsa. Gunsu and Hyungam (Magistrate) are literati official's titles but, if I'm not wrong, they also command military forces when they have adjunct miliatry titles. Left Cholla Navy has five land garrisons and five port garrisons. Five land garrisons are... Suncheon ( busa, Constable) - the 3rd Low rank, Kwon Jun Nak-An ( gunsu) - the 4th Low rank, Shin Ho Boseong ( gunsu) - the 4th Low rank Gwang-Yang ( hyungam) - the 6th Low rank, Uh Young-Dam Heung-Yang ( hyungam) - the 6th Low rank, Bae Heung-Rip (YSS's loyal subordinate, but absent in the drama.) Five port garrisons (with pure military officers) are Bang-Dap ( chumsa) - the 3rd Low rank, Yi Soon-Shin (homonym) Sado ( chumsa) - the 3rd Low rank, Kim Wan Nokdo ( manho, captain) - the 4rd Low rank, Chung Woon Yeodo ( manho, captain) - the 4rd Low rank Balpo ( manho, captain) - the 4rd Low rank Cf. YSS was Captain of Balpo when he was young.
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Post by TheBo on Apr 28, 2005 15:10:44 GMT -5
Okay, Florel, I'm just gonna read that over and over and over until it seeps into my brain pan. Your grace is immeasurable.
Bo
(PS - isn't YSS (the immortal, not the homonym) a literati? he's educated as one, isn't he? also, I seem to recall that one of YSS's "cabinet" is always being teased by the others for thinking things can be solved with the pen--is he a literati, too? Do the regular army guys look down on literati (as they do now) even though their rank is technically higher? are there any other questions I can think of to test your historical chops?)
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Post by florel on Apr 28, 2005 16:38:06 GMT -5
Bo, it seems I gave you a headaching cadeau. If my foolish historical dissertation is not understandable, just pass it and do not waste your time.
I will try to answer your questions with more clear and direct way. I feel I'm taking an examination of history class.
What means chum sa, gun su, hyun gam and mahn ho?
- They are office titles (see below*).
Also, if some of the navy guys are magistrates, why are they so rude about YSS being one (that's a question of psychology, not definition, but still).
- Because they are jealous of him, a magistrate of low rank suddenly appointed as Commander mounting several hierarchal ladders at one time.
isn't YSS (the immortal, not the homonym) a literati? he's educated as one, isn't he?
- Yes, he is also a man of the pen. As you saw in the drama, he had prepared literati examination before he passed military one.
also, I seem to recall that one of YSS's "cabinet" is always being teased by the others for thinking things can be solved with the pen--is he a literati, too?
- I guess you mention Kwon Jun. In the drama, Yes. The dramatists depict him as a literati official. But it's not certain on this point. He became admiral (as you saw in Ep. 1-4) and he killed a Japanese commander by arrow (or gun) shot (in a futur episode). Was he a professional military man in real history ? Possibly. I hope someone else would offer us more historical data about him.
Do the regular army guys look down on literati (as they do now) even though their rank is technically higher?
- It seems it was contrary in real history. In fact, literati posts are considered as more prestigious and honorable than military ones, even by military officers themselves.
are there any other questions I can think of to test your historical chops?
- Bo, tu es sadique !
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