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Post by Skinz Unlogged on Jun 29, 2005 16:26:25 GMT -5
I think some people have read this wonderful novel full of THE best characters ever written. And since this board is losing a lot of steam I thought something else can be discussed here.
So what's your favorite kingdom:
Shu Wei Wu
I'm a Shu man myself. Zhao Yun is my favorite five tiger general.
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Post by Skinz unlogged on Jun 29, 2005 16:29:45 GMT -5
Oops! forgot to mention my other favorite generals: Zhang Liao and Zhang He from Wei.
I'm not a big fan of Wu. They just never held my interest like the others have.
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Post by dethscithe on Jun 29, 2005 23:22:46 GMT -5
wu fan here.
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Post by Maalii on Jun 30, 2005 0:44:29 GMT -5
Of course this is my favorite book ever, yet picking favorites is not so easy.
I'm sort of a Wu fan and I guess part of it is because Wu sort of gets short changed--much less text is devoted to Wu than to Shu and Wei. Of course when you think about how the plot of the novel is driven, this makes perfect sense and I think the author made the right dramatic decision to downplay Wu. I think Sun Quan's overall approach to ruling (at least as portrayed in the novel) is more practical (no obsession with taking over rest country) and in some ways more intelligent than that of the rulers of the other competing kingdoms. Now what I gather from history is that Wu was more aggressive than one might be led to believe in the novel, but we are discussing the novel here, so I like Wu. Because his character in the novel is more balanced and less obsessed than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, Sun Quan is my favorite of the three. On the other hand, I think Cao Cao is by far the most interesting of the three rulers--what a marvellously crafted character he is! As for other Wu characters, I think Zhou Yu's and Lu Xun's genius is pretty well played up in the novel, although the novel is written so that Zhou Yu is overshadowed by Kongming even though he is the mastermind of the epic Red Cliffs battle. Of course one can also argue that Zhou Yu and Lu Xun were never fully tested as strategists in the novel because they played D almost entirely rather than lead or advise major offensives in the way Kongming, Cao Cao and Cao Cao's brilliant advisors (such as Guo Jia etc) did.
My favorite warrior is also Zhao Yun. I believe he is the best combination of martial skill and intelligence of any other warrior character in the novel. I also like Guan Yu (who doesn't) and his counterpart in Wei (Zhang Liao), as well as Gan Ning and Ding Feng although I don't like these four as much as I like Zhao Yun. By the way, speaking of history and Zhao Yun's greatness, the "open gate" ploy Zhao Yun played was actually more impressive in the actual history than the more famous (in the novel) open gate gambit employed by Kongming, for two reasons: 1. The actual numerical disadvantage that Kongming faced was apparently about 2:1 and the numerical odds faced by Zhao Yun when he used his version of this ploy were apparently far greater. 2. Kongming used his ploy to allow him to retreat unharassed, whereas Zhao Yun turned it around into a counterattack that won him a decisive victory over vastly larger forces. Yes, Zhao Yun is the man. What a great book. By the way, Skinz, you've got to run down Outlaws of the Marsh. I like RTK best overall, but some of the characters in Outlaws are simply unforgettable.
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Post by skinz on Jun 30, 2005 17:04:05 GMT -5
Point well taken Maali. I'm not a fan of Wu because of the same reason you like them. They were not focused as much as the other kingdoms were and I lost some of my interest into what Wu was doing and became more focused on Zhang Liang South and North campaigns later in the book. I like Shu because of how it was formed. Liu Bei sided with most of the generals to find his way in the savage world until he finally accomplished his goal, but the novel was written to be pro-Shu anyway and I guess I fell for it. I'm not a big fan of Guan Yu myself (probably the only one) He was a honorable soldier with great dignity for what he did but he came off too cocky sometime for my taste. I even like old man Huang Zhong and more than Guan Yu. I'm still waiting to get Outlaw of the Marshes this summer. Oh, and have anyone seen the drama series for ROTK? I saw some pics from the T.V. series. CAO CAO Guan Yu Liu Bei Sima Yi Sun Quan Zhao Yun Zhou Yu Yellow Scarve Rebellion
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Post by seven stars on Jul 1, 2005 15:22:52 GMT -5
That's what I'm talking about Skinz. You are the man! This is a thread I can sink my teeth into. I'll defer to other's expertise in the novel, and especially the historical account, as some (ie. Maali to name just one) are far more well versed in those areas. For my taste, Shu is the best. I always root for the underdog, and clearly Liu Bei was the underdog of the three rulers. He started with nothing but a true cause, and the loyalty of his friends and followers. The two driving personalities in the story are Cao Cao and the "Sleeping Dragon" Kongming. Therefore, I would have to say that those two are probably the most intriguing characters. SGYY embelishments aside, I am of the opinion that Kongming is clearly the greatest of the ROTK strategists. (I know, I know, didn't take much thinking to come to that conclusion did it?! That's pretty much what they want us to believe). My favorite characters are Guan Yu (Though I agree, he was cocky), Zhang Fei (His personal growth was dramatic though incomplete),Zhao Yun, Sun Ce, Zhang Liao, Huang Gai (Showed courage and cunning at Chi Bi), Ma Chao (Tenacious through and through), Chen Gong, and Sima Yi. One thing about the television series version that I didn't like was the fact that several characters were played by different actors. Zhao Yun is the most extreme example in that he was played by four different actors. The gentleman that you have pictured Skinz, is the one whom I believe best portrayed the great warrior.
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Post by skinz unlogged on Jul 1, 2005 16:58:56 GMT -5
Glad were making progress in this discussion. ;D Anyway, I found The Way Of The General by Zhuge Liang (Kongming) Here's some of the differences I learned about the novel and history. It seems that there were no brotherhood between Guan Yu,Zhang Fei, and Liu Bei. Wonder why the author created such a thing? -Zhang Fei was never a drunk -Diao Chan was not real -Guan Yu did not kill 5 gate leaders -Zhou Yu did not despise Zhuge Liang
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Post by MaaliiHT on Jul 5, 2005 20:07:15 GMT -5
That's what I'm talking about Skinz. You are the man! This is a thread I can sink my teeth into. I'll defer to other's expertise in the novel, and especially the historical account, as some (ie. Maali to name just one) are far more well versed in those areas. For my taste, Shu is the best. I always root for the underdog, and clearly Liu Bei was the underdog of the three rulers. He started with nothing but a true cause, and the loyalty of his friends and followers. The two driving personalities in the story are Cao Cao and the "Sleeping Dragon" Kongming. Therefore, I would have to say that those two are probably the most intriguing characters. SGYY embelishments aside, I am of the opinion that Kongming is clearly the greatest of the ROTK strategists. (I know, I know, didn't take much thinking to come to that conclusion did it?! That's pretty much what they want us to believe). My favorite characters are Guan Yu (Though I agree, he was cocky), Zhang Fei (His personal growth was dramatic though incomplete),Zhao Yun, Sun Ce, Zhang Liao, Huang Gai (Showed courage and cunning at Chi Bi), Ma Chao (Tenacious through and through), Chen Gong, and Sima Yi. One thing about the television series version that I didn't like was the fact that several characters were played by different actors. Zhao Yun is the most extreme example in that he was played by four different actors. The gentleman that you have pictured Skinz, is the one whom I believe best portrayed the great warrior. I've probably asked you this before, but what did you think of the RTK drama series overall (since I haven't seen it and am thinking of buying the subtitled DVDs). What do you think of the acting and writing of the RTK series compared to AOW, for example? I've heard that the drama series truncates the ending (somewhat disappointing to me because I think all the late parts so nicely complete the story). Where do they end it? When Kongming dies on the battlefield? When Shu falls? Or do they simply run the show on fast forward after Kongming's death? On another front, looking at the photos Skinz provided, as well as some earlier peeks at a website on the show, I'm a tad disappointed at the range of actor's appearances. Everyone is sort of the standard light-complected Chinese actor we're used to seeing. In contrast, Guan Yu was supposed to be very darkly complectedm (in different passages in different translations both he and Wei Yan are described as having skin 'as dark as a ripe date' or something to that effect) and Sun Quan is supposed to have gray eyes (blue in one translation and gray in the other) and reddish hair. Still, I find this a comparatively minor obstacle to my enjoying the show, if the acting and writing are good.
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Post by skinz on Jul 6, 2005 10:11:43 GMT -5
I've probably asked you this before, but what did you think of the RTK drama series overall (since I haven't seen it and am thinking of buying the subtitled DVDs). What do you think of the acting and writing of the RTK series compared to AOW, for example? I've heard that the drama series truncates the ending (somewhat disappointing to me because I think all the late parts so nicely complete the story). Where do they end it? When Kongming dies on the battlefield? When Shu falls? Or do they simply run the show on fast forward after Kongming's death? I'm interested on the quality of the drama series also. Well I do know that the series go up to Sima's reign. SIMA YAN SIMA ZHAO SIMA SHI (Here is where I have a problem. Where the hell is the mole? ) DENG AI JIANG WEI And judging that Deng Ai and Jiang Wei are there, the story of the downfall of Shu should be in one of the episodes as well as the rest. Some characters are the way I presume they would look like ie: Sima Yi, Zhou Yu, and Cao Cao (although he looks fatter than I expected),but others or somewhat off. Where's the long ears of Liu Bei? The long arms that were blow his knees? Where in the world is the mole for Sima Shi? How in the world did they get that wrong? His death is caused by it for goodnes sake.
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Post by skinz on Jul 6, 2005 10:23:02 GMT -5
Look at Liu Bei ears? they should be ashamed Guan Yu on guard protecting Liu Bei's wives. Is it me of does the actor to skinny to be carrying that weapon? At least they have the battles done right
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Post by seven stars on Jul 6, 2005 12:57:35 GMT -5
I've probably asked you this before, but what did you think of the RTK drama series overall (since I haven't seen it and am thinking of buying the subtitled DVDs). What do you think of the acting and writing of the RTK series compared to AOW, for example? I've heard that the drama series truncates the ending (somewhat disappointing to me because I think all the late parts so nicely complete the story). Where do they end it? When Kongming dies on the battlefield? When Shu falls? Or do they simply run the show on fast forward after Kongming's death? Sorry for the delay in responding. The series is fun for an ROTK fan to watch. I found it exciting to view these characters portrayed by actors. As Skinz mentioned earlier, these are perhaps the greatest characters ever to be written about. The strength of the Television series is that it is based on a story that is superior to any K-Drama that I have viewed thus far. Having said that, the ROTK series itself is not written as well as Age of Warriors. AOW is largely a superior artistic piece with regard to its cinematography, character development, acting, and cohesion. This can probably be attributed to the fact that AOW is a later work. In my opinion, however, the ROTK series is very enjoyable and worth buying (especially in light of the fact that it can be obtained relatively inexpensively on ebay). THANKS AGAIN ID! There were numerous allusions to ROTK in Emperor Wang Guhn. I will share some examples. Taejo's sworn brother Shin Seongyeom's head was delivered to King of Paekgae Kyun Hwon after his death. On another occasion, Taejo's strategist Taepyong prayed at a shrine for the wind to blow at the time of a major naval battle. Third, Sudal of Paekgae fought three powerful warriors at once and was compared to Lu Bu. Lastly, prince of Paekgae Geom Kang was shot in the eye with an arrow and before swallowing it, quoted Xiahou Dun stating that he could not discard a precious gift from his parents. I am of the opinion that the EWG writers were keenly aware of the comparisons that their work was destined to draw to ROTK. They obviously cashed in on the built in fanbase by writing several similar storylines. You can't really blame them and it was fun, although I was sometimes left questioning the creativity of the writing. I do not yet know where the ROTK series ends Maali, as I have not yet finished it. It seems to me that the series did speed up a bit after the deaths of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Liu Bei. Kong Ming's death occurs near the close of the series, therefore one can assume that there is little attention given to the post Shu portion of the story. Perhaps someone else can help us with this question. If not, I will likely complete my first viewing of the series this month, and will provide an update at that time.
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Post by MaaliiHT on Jul 6, 2005 23:55:30 GMT -5
I'm interested on the quality of the drama series also. Well I do know that the series go up to Sima's reign. And judging that Deng Ai and Jiang Wei are there, the story of the downfall of Shu should be in one of the episodes as well as the rest. Some characters are the way I presume they would look like ie: Sima Yi, Zhou Yu, and Cao Cao (although he looks fatter than I expected),but others or somewhat off. Where's the long ears of Liu Bei? The long arms that were blow his knees? Where in the world is the mole for Sima Shi? How in the world did they get that wrong? His death is caused by it for goodnes sake. Yes, I agree you can't make Sima Shi without his mole. That is one of the most excruciating death scenes in all RTK, not to mention that it's rather unique. What other character in a warrior novel has ever died from and infected cosmetic surgery? (OK, the mole was supposed to be hurting, but...). And as you note, surely one could have found someone with long lobes for Liu Bei--dunno if I've ever seen lobes down to someone's shoulders, still...Long arms certainly aren't that hard to find--my fingertips dangle within an inch of my knees. And Guan Yu is way too light complected...he's supposed to be very dark like Wei Yan (I recall Wei Yan is decribed as dark as a ripe date in Brewitt-Taylor and Guan Yu is similarly described in a different passage in Moss Roberts). Now gray/blue eyes and a red beard might be a bit hard to find for Sun Quan, unless they want to cast Mark McGwire in the role. Quibbles aside I find your assessment of this series encouraging; it sound slike these are some DVDs I must get a hold of.
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Post by kinoeugene on Jul 11, 2005 0:17:27 GMT -5
you guys are talking about ß²ÏÐò¤. I've read this book more than twice. however, the names of the characters are so unfamiliar to me because of the chinese pronounciation. anyway, so glad to meet ß²ÏÐò¤ fellows....
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Post by seven stars on Jul 11, 2005 11:58:05 GMT -5
Sorry about that Kinoeugene. Have you seen the television series? If so, how do you compare it to the book, as well as the other K-Dramas?
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Post by skinz on Jul 11, 2005 15:31:03 GMT -5
I read a review of the T.V. series on some website and it stated that it was great for a fan of the novel but the changes of some of the characters will piss off the purists of the book. Also, I read that the cast members were cruel to the horses because they didn't know how to ride horses properly. They almost strangled the poor horses.
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